Perfect example on why the guide sucks ass..

Beta is a tag used by our generation to defend mediocrity.

I hate to say it but he has a point. You guys know I love ya but you have to stop saying that this isn't important and you're working on your "real" project. Is this site a business? Is it intended to make money, fill a need in the community, enhance your ultimate goals with VD? If the answer is yes, you should treat it as you do the other thing.

Why would we want to support or be a part of something that's just a red-headed stepchild?

You've missed the point. Talknightlife is not not important. It is an ancillary feature of a bigger machine that is getting most of the attention right now. The entire project is "real" but resources are limited and currently focused on the engine of it all.

They said they'd fix it... when they can. End of story.

I haven't missed the point at all. Maybe you, in your haste to disagree with me again, missed mine. I understand their situation. I understand the master plan, perhaps more than most as I know the players and have been hearing about this for ages. My point was that Pod and Ryan should present it in a different way rather than always saying how unimportant this is. this forum may not be a huge part of the overall plan but it is a part. If it's worth doing, it's worth taking seriously and doing right. Every time someone makes a comment about this site, we hear "we know but we don't really care because we're working on something important." The intention of any forum is to develop a community of some sort. All I'm saying is that if you keep telling us that this isn't important and you don't care about it, why should we care and contribute.

You could say the same thing without the part where it's a stepchild. You could just say that "we're very busy making this the best forum in the world and as soon as we have time, we'll get that fixed."

[Ryan]

Until yesterday TNL was a stepchild, and my job is building things not PR.

It is an ancillary feature of a bigger machine that is getting most of the attention right now.

Yeah but you missed another point. That's why it's fun. TNL is going to be a lot different when it's a lot bigger and serving more than one city.

Dade, one of the reasons for TNL development being throttled, other than the fact that it's all on me, is that we weren't going to cannibalize NapkinNights. But the landscape can change overnight and side projects waiting in the wings can get thrust into the spotlight when you least expect it. So be careful what you wish for.

Ancient Chinese curse: "Have an interesting life." Things have been pretty "interesting" over the last year. You guys only know a fraction of it.

I think Dade has a point.

Talk is important to us. We've put a lot of work thus far into it, with a shoestring budget from the powers that be. Fortunately, a lot of the stuff being done for Venue Driver, benefits Talk immensely, so in a roundabout way, there's been work on TNL ongoing.

We're gonna make it the best forum, just wait.

Every time someone makes a comment about this site, we hear "we know but we don't really care because we're working on something important."

I guess that's where you and I differ.

I don't hear them saying they don't care or that it's unimportant. I hear them saying:

Guess what, we're totally in agreement with you. But read the fun tag that says "Beta". We're open to suggestions, and this is valid. Ryan and I discussed this very thing at lunch last week. "It's hard to follow" was the general consensus.

Again, our development staff of 1 (that can work on TNL) is occupied at the moment.

Duly noted, and we're gonna work on it.

Or something to that effect.

I think Dade has a point.

Talk is important to us. We've put a lot of work thus far into it, with a shoestring budget from the powers that be. Fortunately, a lot of the stuff being done for Venue Driver, benefits Talk immensely, so in a roundabout way, there's been work on TNL ongoing.

We're gonna make it the best forum, just wait.

Ryan & Pod - You guys are doing a great job.....let's say that right off the bat. All I was talking about was presentation. There's an old saying..."The marketing department isn't the whole business but the whole business is the marketing department." When Ryan says "my job is building things not PR", he couldn't be more wrong. Every time anyone from that company or any company speaks to the public about their business, they are leaving impressions. For better or worse, that's the truth. Ryan, if PR isn't your job, stop answering questions and leave it to people who understand how to communicate with the public in a fashion that helps the company. You can't compartmentalize yourself as just the programmer and then speak for the company, as you have, on the company's public forum.

Did I mention I love you guys?

Every time someone makes a comment about this site, we hear "we know but we don't really care because we're working on something important."

I guess that's where you and I differ.

I don't hear them saying they don't care or that it's unimportant. I hear them saying:

Guess what, we're totally in agreement with you. But read the fun tag that says "Beta". We're open to suggestions, and this is valid. Ryan and I discussed this very thing at lunch last week. "It's hard to follow" was the general consensus.

Again, our development staff of 1 (that can work on TNL) is occupied at the moment.

Duly noted, and we're gonna work on it.

Or something to that effect.

There you go again...... You have a habit of selective quoting and only looking back as far as it supports your position. i, however, am looking at the history of these comments and am including the ones that were written before today, which have been along the lines of what I said and Pod agreed to.

I get too defensive and Ryan doesn't get defensive enough, hah.

You think it'd even out.

OK, if I can lay this to rest right now.

We've been working on Venue Driver, as you know. Venue Driver powers certain parts of Talk Nightlife, as well as a few other things coming soon. Our development staff is 1 full-time person (Ryan), a real-world tester (me) and two part-time programmers helping Ryan out.

Talk, being what it is, is something we all believe in here, and we plan on making it into something much more than it is today. There's a list of things we've come up with, and a list of things the community has come up with, that we plan on doing. And it will be done.

There you go again...... You have a habit of selective quoting and only looking back as far as it supports your position. i, however, am looking at the history of these comments and am including the ones that were written before today, which have been along the lines of what I said and Pod agreed to.

Feel free to quote a comment from Pod or Ryan where they said they "don't really care" about TNL or that it's "unimportant".

There you go again...... You have a habit of selective quoting and only looking back as far as it supports your position. i, however, am looking at the history of these comments and am including the ones that were written before today, which have been along the lines of what I said and Pod agreed to.

Feel free to quote a comment from Pod or Ryan where they said they "don't really care" about TNL or that it's "unimportant".

You really are like a Republican running for office or a Fox News anchor. You will twist anything to try and not be wrong. I'm not going to go back and try and find a "quote" because that's just silly. I wasn't referring to a specific quote but rather on the tone of their responses. An objective review of those would show that they've said a number of times that VD was what they were devoting their time to because it was going to be paying the bills and was much more important. They've made reference to the TNL site as something for fun and many other statements that made it seem unimportant.

I notice you didn't comment on the other portion of my post.....

[Ryan]

I don't hear them saying they don't care or that it's unimportant.

To prove this point, while you guys were blabbering about this I went and added a link to that date field, tested, commited the changes, deployed the code, restarted the server. Now Honky's first post in this thread is wrong, if you follow the link to the page that he's pointing at, the date IS a link. And that, Dade, is my job.

TNL doesn't care about its image, it's a conversation medium. If we put flyers here powered by Venue Driver and we make it possible for people to talk, then they're going to talk. It's unrealistic and self-important for me to think that I could guide the conversation one way or another. Positive or negative. Dance or hip hop. People are going to talk about what they're going to talk about and I'm just one voice. I can build dams and sluices and retention ponds, but the water is going to flow where it wants to flow, and I'm not so arrogant as to presume that I can control it.

And that, Dade, is my job.

Since you obviously missed this the first time, I'll re-post it here.....

There's an old saying..."The marketing department isn't the whole business but the whole business is the marketing department." When Ryan says "my job is building things not PR", he couldn't be more wrong. Every time anyone from that company or any company speaks to the public about their business, they are leaving impressions. For better or worse, that's the truth. Ryan, if PR isn't your job, stop answering questions and leave it to people who understand how to communicate with the public in a fashion that helps the company. You can't compartmentalize yourself as just the programmer and then speak for the company, as you have, on the company's public forum.

You see, Ryan, nobody is suggesting that you should even attempt to control or steer the conversation. What I am saying is that every time you post here, you are acting as a PR person and speaking for the company whether you like it or not. That's business school 101. If your job isn't speaking for the company, stop speaking for the company.

Here's an example..... Space employees are prohibited from posting on any public forum anything about Space without LP's clearance. Why? Because Lp knows that they will be seen as speaking for the company and he, as a quality businessman, wants to make sure that whatever is being said by Space is what he wants said. That, by the way, is common practice among well-run companies.

Imagine someone posting that the sound in the main room was sounding like shit and having some Space tech guy say "We know that it's not good right now but we make our money on the patio so we're working on that now. We'll get to that if and when we have time." Even if it's true, LP would break his fucking neck because he wants customers to think that he cares about every little detail.