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Ableton/Final Scratch....

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Postby AndrewChibale on 07 Aug 2008 13:41

Re: Ableton/Final Scratch....

:: scratches head ::

:: takes a sip of his beer ::

i use mixed in key all the time before i start a remix, if you run the original mix of a song thru the software it will give you a bpm and a key read. you can also run all the different parts of a remix thru the software so you can get accurate key reads and be able to better find instruments that will go along with the original parts, all in key!

with that in mind, i can start working on the remix as quickly as possible. i seriously dont see anything wrong on this

i have seen "producers" doing remixes of songs getting a terrible final product because all of the new parts are not "in key" with the original ones. what you get at the end is some "arroz con mango". you should be able to fix that on your own .. but some people just dont have the ear for it

now, am i gonna run every single track on my cd case thru this software so i know bpms, key changes and all of that before a gig ? no ... it will be exactly the same thing as doing a playlist with the order of which tracks i am gonna play first, which second and so on ....

you can "prepare" tracks for the night and study your music but once you get to that gig the ideal thing to do is to read the crowd and play accordingly: what if you get there and your crowd consist of a bunch of old people but the first track on your play list is "tiesto - flight 643"

im sure you will be getting the boot from your manager before that first track ends ...
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Postby Ryan on 07 Aug 2008 13:51

Re: Ableton/Final Scratch....

AndrewChibale wrote:i have seen "producers" doing remixes of songs getting a terrible final product because all of the new parts are not "in key" with the original ones. what you get at the end is some "arroz con mango". you should be able to fix that on your own .. but some people just dont have the ear for it


Indeed, and that's even worse than a DJ who doesn't understand harmonic mixing. It's unbelievable how many tracks there are right now on Beatport that have a bunch of different elements that don't harmonize. And people still buy them.
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Postby AndrewChibale on 07 Aug 2008 13:57

Re: Ableton/Final Scratch....

Ryan wrote:
AndrewChibale wrote:i have seen "producers" doing remixes of songs getting a terrible final product because all of the new parts are not "in key" with the original ones. what you get at the end is some "arroz con mango". you should be able to fix that on your own .. but some people just dont have the ear for it


Indeed, and that's even worse than a DJ who doesn't understand harmonic mixing. It's unbelievable how many tracks there are right now on Beatport that have a bunch of different elements that don't harmonize. And people still buy them.


ha! arroz con mango im telling you .. lol
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Postby AlanS on 07 Aug 2008 14:07

Re: Ableton/Final Scratch....

I'm not talking mixing in the production sense here, I'm talking DJing. Of course you are going to have a crap track if everything is out of key - or with components in incompatible keys. Incompatible, out of key, same thing to me. Won't mix with others most likely either.

What I find interesting is the desire to automate so many facets of the DJ set and performance. Auto beat matching with Live, automatic key selection with mixed in key... Embracing technology, I guess. The lost art of DJing, perhaps.
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Postby Ryan on 07 Aug 2008 14:56

Re: Ableton/Final Scratch....

AlanS wrote:What I find interesting is the desire to automate so many facets of the DJ set and performance. Auto beat matching with Live, automatic key selection with mixed in key... Embracing technology, I guess. The lost art of DJing, perhaps.


You have a picture of an electronic keyboard in your avatar. Not a piano. Lost art? Or new capabilities?
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Postby pod on 07 Aug 2008 14:59

Re: Ableton/Final Scratch....

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Postby AlanS on 07 Aug 2008 15:59

Re: Ableton/Final Scratch....

Ryan wrote:
AlanS wrote:What I find interesting is the desire to automate so many facets of the DJ set and performance. Auto beat matching with Live, automatic key selection with mixed in key... Embracing technology, I guess. The lost art of DJing, perhaps.


You have a picture of an electronic keyboard in your avatar. Not a piano. Lost art? Or new capabilities?


Point taken. Actually, this discussion has piqued my interested on harmonic mixing more than anything.

I see this being useful if properly integrated into Traktor or Live. If your entire catalog is tagged with key information and searchable based on this information, you could mix around the Camelot Sound Easymix wheel. Nothing is pre-planned, you just search based on the next key you want to mix in and see a subset of your catalog to choose from.

Hey, maybe we'll even start seeing Camelot Sound Easymix wheels posted in DJ booths :P
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Postby Ryan on 07 Aug 2008 16:11

Re: Ableton/Final Scratch....

AlanS wrote:I see this being useful if properly integrated into Traktor or Live.


That is SO true. I tag the dominant keys of my deep house tracks with, like "Ebm" for E-flat minor, "Dbm", D-flat minor, "AM", A major, etc. If there were just a standard notation, then my tools automatically only show me compatible tracks when I go looking for the next track to play.

That would narrow my potential track selection by a lot, which would free up more of my mind for pre-visualizing how the new track will interact with the current track. IMHO that would make most DJ sets better, to have the DJ thinking at a higher level and not just sitting there listening to banging beats. You can either look at the whole forest all at once, or you can sit there staring at two specific trees.
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Postby AlanS on 07 Aug 2008 16:25

Re: Ableton/Final Scratch....

Unfortunately, it looks like there is a little more manual intervention involved currently.

Taken from mixedinkey.com

1. Use Mixed In Key to scan your music before every gig.

2. Label your CD, digital files and vinyl sleeves once you have your results. You can put the keycode before the artist name or after the song name. You will need to be able to quickly access these results during your set.


I'm envisioning having this information somewhere in the ID3 tag that is searchable by Traktor or Live, rather than having to rename files. The current approach certainly work, and is the only option if you are using wavs as your source.

For CDs, you could rename the tracks with the key information right in the title, and burn that to CD-TEXT when you are making CDs. Not as neat as searching and seeing only the key you are looking for, but workable nonetheless.
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Postby Ryan on 07 Aug 2008 16:38

Re: Ableton/Final Scratch....

Yeah, Mixed In Key is very valuable but it's kind of a pain in the ass. That's exactly why I stick a dominant key tag in my ID3 comments so that I can do it myself. I don't use any software to do harmonic mixing, I just label my tracks and then I consult the harmonic mixing chart. Except that once you've done it a little you don't need the chart any more, you just end up memorizing what goes with what. Like anything in music theory.

If you're mixing dance music then it's VERY easy. That's part of the whole point of dance music: it doesn't use very many different dominant keys and they almost all harmonize as long as you stay within one genre. (Which is really BORING after a while, guys, sorry...) Lots and lots and lots of E flat minor and D flat minor in deep house for example. If you're an open format DJ then your job is much more difficult.

That's why I think that one of the biggest benefits of the new tools, Ableton especially, will be genre-bending. It will be much easier to go from rock to house to hip hop and back to rock with the new tools. In harmony and on the beat.
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